Another religious mystery

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Another religious mystery

by ranfuchs ^Pro @ 09/03/2008 – 12:11:41

Recently, I got into an argument (again) about the invalidity of the religious view of the world. I pointed out that throughout the entire history, the religious view was world kept changing (for instance: earth was at centre of the universe, everything was made of four elements, bodies fell at speeds relative to their weight, and flies had four legs).

At any stage, the truth of the religious truth was absolute enough to demand the execution of those who disagreed with it. Then the views changed, and other truths became absolute and worth killing for.

Knowing how the Church’s truth kept changing, and that the infallibility of the past is not that of today, it defies understanding how people can still insist that today’s truth is the one and only?
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Tags:
- sex
- religion
- church
- science
- not relaly about sex

53 Comments to Another religious mystery

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- deleted user (Visitor)
- 09/03/2008 @ 12:19:21
Agree.

We need to learn to have open minds. To realise that what appears to be truth and fact now (religious, scientific...) may not be truth tomorrow. So, there may be things we don't understand fully which we shouldn't disregard because we don't fully understand it. Unfortunately there are too many people in this world who can't seem to live with ambiguity.

By the way, how come you tagged this post with the word "sex"????
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 14:53:11
  Just another experiment. Whenever I tag sex I get twice the number of visitiors
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 09/03/2008 @ 15:39:46
    I only noticed it as I was writing my comment. Shows what motivates us!!
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 17:47:38
      sure, and when I was a woman, even without writing I got many more visits. See http://ranfuchs.blog.co.uk/2007/11/30/man_and_woman_experiment~3377257
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  - - Melinda_blog
    - 14/03/2008 @ 20:52:00
    Is that how it works??
    I never tag anything. That explains a lot.
    there again, I never read anyone else's tags, either.
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 14/03/2008 @ 22:46:29
      I am not sure. I just tagged it and here you are
      - Melinda_blog
        
        15/03/2008 @ 07:15:32
        
        But I read the comment, not the tag.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        15/03/2008 @ 09:19:10
        
        ok, so you are one of those rare individuals who cannot be tagged. Still it workds for everyone else
        
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        Melinda_blog
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:13:10
        
        how do you know it works for everyone else?
        there could be thousands of people who don't read them.
        I've been blogging for 2 and a half years, and I've never bothered with them.
        I thought about experimentally tagging my HorC post from yesterday with 'breasts', but I don't know how i would measure whether it made any difference.
        Besides, I once had 'breasts' and 'nakedness' in the title of one of my posts, and still no bugger read it.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:21:50
        
        Whenever I put sex as tag I get twice as many readers. Not reliable, I am the first to admit, but some anecdotal evidence nonetheless
        
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        Melinda_blog
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:41:22
        
        how do you measure the number of readers?
        I always thought the stats were unreliable, and anyway, they don't apply to specific posts. Is there some way I'm not aware of? If so, I'll give it a try.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:45:52
        
        no. But if you post a single item, you can see the increase in the number of readers.
        
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        Melinda_blog
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:50:14
        
        I guess I could try the 'breasts' tag then.
        I always wonder when people respond to my posts what got them to read in the first place.
        for example, why did you ever start reading my blog (can you remember that far back?) Particularly as I have never used tags.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        15/03/2008 @ 18:52:59
        
        don't have a clue.
        
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        Melinda_blog
        
        15/03/2008 @ 21:22:24
        
        Glad you did
        
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- 09/03/2008 @ 12:49:55
I would suggest that the word 'truth' is an over-used abstract noun that nobody really understands because its definition is subjective.

But then I'm only a chimpanzee.
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 17:16:14
  but you like ants. This is truth
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 09/03/2008 @ 19:24:08
    True, I do like ants. But not everybody does apparently.
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 19:38:41
      they don't know what they are missing
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- tobstv
- 09/03/2008 @ 13:20:38
You, get in an argument? Never!

Most religions are clever PR exercises: how can we get people to believe in our version of the truth, and only ours?

Things started to get complicated once people could choose between versions of the same truth, and the only way to keep control was to penalize those who subscribe to a different version.

Fortunately, the 'oppressive periods' are becoming shorter and shorter: you only have to look at the rise and fall of communism (a very recent religion) to see how ideologies too have a shelf life.
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 17:26:22
  Democracy and capitalism ideologies are in desperate need for a complete overhaul though.
  - - funkdifino ^Pro
    - 09/03/2008 @ 22:45:35
    I'm holding out for a new renaissance where science and philosophy collaborate to develop a net flexible to hold us all together whilst accepting disparate and every changing perceptions.....it hurts my brain to think of how this could happen and always ends up looking like a bad episode of Star Treck.....I worry there are just too many of us wasting too much too often to be sustainable long term...maybe the cockroach people of the future will solve the riddle...
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 10/03/2008 @ 06:49:53
      I like the cockroach idea much more than star treck.
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- 09/03/2008 @ 13:43:59
because people are stupid.
- - DominicGee
  - 09/03/2008 @ 15:18:36
  aren't you a person? I have a rule: don't generalize about people what you wouldn't generalize about yourself.
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 09/03/2008 @ 17:14:05
    yip, I'm people,I'm stupid. I would never deny this. I'm a thick fucking moron.I realised when I typed 'people are stupid' that I was including myself.but do me a favour pal, stick your rules up your arse eh?
    - - DominicGee
      - 09/03/2008 @ 18:34:22
      er, that was a bit more than was needed. i gave you a rhetorical question, not an insult Mr Over-sensitive.
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  - - ranfuchs ^Pro
    - 09/03/2008 @ 17:43:18
    sure he is. And we are all stupid, me included
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- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 17:27:55
  and I hope that you are aware that me and you in the same category. Most people believe that it's the others that are stupid, but we are no better
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 09/03/2008 @ 17:32:01
    if we weren't all stupid we'd have the politicians and clergy shot up against a wall.
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 17:49:40
      You get my vote here
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- DominicGee
- 09/03/2008 @ 15:16:42
can't you say the same thing about science (that is science has made many assumptions that have been proven wrong? Ok not worth killing for maybe, but political/social sciences have caused deaths also i.e. political ideologies such as communism or nationalism have caused death in the same way as religions have, and these are ideologies the same as religions are.
Science itself has never killed anybody, no, but if that can be claimed, then religions can also deny any blood on their hands also.
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 17:42:40
  There is a very fundamental difference between the two. Science never claims it has the truth. Science does not even define what truth is. All science tries to do is to find the best model to fit all the facts we have at any given moment. The beauty of science is that we know that any model we have is only temporary, just read the responses of scientists when a new fact comes about that contradicts existing theories.
  
  Political/social science is 'science' by name only. Just like Hitler's science, or the 'science' that marketing department or governments try to sell us. Communism and nationalism are much more of a religion than a science. There is nothing at all scientific about them. Using the word 'science' or 'scientific' doesn't make them so.
  
  As for claiming that religion never killed anyone. Here I completely disagree with you. What would you call the crusades? The religious wars (Lutherans against Catholics, Anglican against Catholics)? What would you call the 400 years of inquisition, the suicide bombers? A lot of blood cover the hands of nearly every church in the world.
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 09/03/2008 @ 18:09:23
    what about the way the church treated women? how many witch burnings where there? its a thing to joke about now but thousands of women were burned alive for the crime of being a witch. pathetic.
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 18:24:58
      … and the list goes on for eve: Stoning, burning, drowning. It's unbelievable how much love and care the church had put into inventing new tortures. It was so consuming that for long time they were left with no love for anything else.
      - deleted user (Visitor)
        
        09/03/2008 @ 18:36:02
        
        have you ever read The Dark Side of Christian History by Hellen Ellerbe? if not then I highly recommend you pick up a copy. Real eye-opener.Theve got it on Amazon. well worth the money.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        09/03/2008 @ 18:57:43
        
        on my list straight away.
        
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  - - DominicGee
    - 09/03/2008 @ 18:45:33
    I know a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of religion, I don't deny that, but it is not the religions i blame, it is the people who are in charge. The examples you use like the Crusades or the Reformation it could be argued were in fact political/econonomic/social struggles with religion as a pretext. In the same way, the Atom bomb or the gun has meant millions of people dying, but that does not mean that the technology is to blame but the people. Another example would be the idea of nationhood. The concept or action of living in a 'country' is not an agressive act - Nationalism and Xenophobia is, but that is a result of the people making the distiction. I was saying that religion itself is not a bad thing, but it does get misused in some of the worst ways.
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 19:08:57
      Technology does not make any moral claims, it is what it is, and you can always separate the inventor from the invention. That is, either it works or it doesn’t. You can test it.
      
      Religion, on the other hand, claims that it makes better people, that it is moral. It often asks, what kind of morality would man have if he didn't have God. Under these claims, it's hard to differentiate between the moral religion and the immoral people that became the heads of the religion. It's like having a meat eater preach for vegetarianism, or a rich people preaching for the value of poverty.
      
      Based on your own argument the least we can say is:
      1. Religion does not make people better
      2. Those who are in the head of religion, cynically use religion to manipulate others for their own benefit
      3. We therefore cannot trust anything they tell us, because they have their own agenda, which has nothing to do with God, religion or belief.
      4. As it has been going on since the beginning of recorded history, we really don't know anything about the stories they tell us.
      
      So if we can’t trust those who tell us the stories, all we are left with are stories. What values can these have?
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    - - funkdifino ^Pro
      - 09/03/2008 @ 22:55:04
      What is religion for ? Social control in a serfdom...and specifically in most religions: Control of the sexual reproductive rights of women. How any right minded individual with even moderate access to a library & who hasn't spent the last 20 years chained to a bench with their blinkered face shoved into the pages of the Torah, Qu'ran or Bible can ever be an apologist for any religion is beyond me....
      Religions and religious dogma are crutches for those afraid of making their own difficult moral judgements and taking responsibility for them without blindly following the orders of someone else...arbitrarily appointed and often ....with a dubious beard.
      - ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        09/03/2008 @ 23:02:41
        
        so you think that religion was created to control people? Or that power hungry people, taking advantage of it, and cynically using religion as a tool ?
        
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- evilhippy
- 09/03/2008 @ 15:19:02
The changing truth of religions is my major gripe with them too - one only my Dad can reliably field, but then he is a Deacon and a theology scholar...
It doesn't make him right of course, quite the opposite, but he is one hell of a person to have these arguments with - shame he isn't on Blog.co.uk really
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 09/03/2008 @ 17:44:45
  try and put him here. Sounds like an interesting person to argue with
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- deleted user (Visitor)
- 12/03/2008 @ 09:26:23
Does it matter what you believe? Believe what you like I say and get on with it. All this pursuit of knowledge stuff is what gets people fighting. If people consentrated on enjoying themselves more it wouldn't matter. I don't care if you believe in Christ, Thugee, Mohammed or what, as long as you don't get in my way - after you die there's nothing, so why concentrate so much on trying to make other people happy in YOUR life time?
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 13/03/2008 @ 20:55:36
  After you die there is nothing, that is your belief. But does it matter what you believe? Actually it does, as what you believe is what determines who you are, for better, and most often for worse. This is a fact, and this cannot be ignored.
  - - deleted user (Visitor)
    - 13/03/2008 @ 23:21:02
    No, I mean does it matter what YOU believe. Sure, I believe certain things, but what other people believe is irrelevant
    - - ranfuchs ^Pro
      - 14/03/2008 @ 06:38:56
      theoretically, you may be right. But as what other people believe drive what they do, and whether they will kill you or not, or allow you to take drugs or not ... I think it does matter
      - deleted user (Visitor)
        
        14/03/2008 @ 09:11:38
        
        Practically everything I want to do I can do. Some of it may be illegal but it doesn't really make it more difficult. I don;t care what politicians have to say as they very rarely affect my way of life. Truth be told, I don't care if they legalize prostitution or not as it wont make a difference to me.
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        14/03/2008 @ 22:44:31
        
        I want to fly
        
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        rubychoo
        
        20/03/2008 @ 21:54:04
        
        Well you just can't OK ?
        
        Not until God or personal hygiene problems give you wings !
        
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        ranfuchs ^Pro
        
        20/03/2008 @ 22:03:55
        
        but some believe that Practically everything they want to do they can do, so I wanted them to teach me the flying part of wanting
        
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- Prettyintelligentprincess ^Pro
- 24/03/2008 @ 23:02:21
Oh..the tag thing...I never realised. Really...do the tags actually do that? I just use the tags as my own catalogue system...
Anyhow..god I always do this,..what was the bloody post about..yes No 52 here!!!!! It's a long scroll down!All I wanted to say was...
arguing...YOU arguing Ran...
Never!!!x
- - ranfuchs ^Pro
  - 25/03/2008 @ 07:27:12
  Sure I am arguing. It's fun
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