Would you consider having your entire memory wiped out, death?
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- 29/01/2008 @ 09:01:45
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and if it wasn't about medical condition, but rather about a complete wipe out of memory (say some future mind technique?)
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- 29/01/2008 @ 15:00:49
Hmmm...well, ok for the sake of argument...
I suspect the question you really want to pose here could be expressed as "Is the person I believe myself to be, more than just the sum of my memories and experiences?" Unless you believe in an as yet unseen extra element which I suppose one might call the soul, then sadly I would guess the answer to that is probably also 'no'.
If for instance your entire mind could be copied in its present state and uploaded into an exact replica in a new or even virtual body, I imagine the second "you" would be pretty much the same person as the first at that point (from then on of course the two would inevitably diverge as they experienced different things and in different ways). By extension if you were to jam the mind into a different brain, it is hard to see how the person that came out at the end of the process would be identical to the one going in so I guess you could say the original had "died" but you would certainly have to destroy the original or I would expect it to simply carry on being itself...lacking any evidence to the contrary, mind and matter appear to be intimately linked.
Does it matter if the soul is just an invention of the mind? We change how we see ourselves and how we appear to others all the time - as long as we can still recognise ourselves it doesn't seem to bother us much. I suppose it really comes down to how important you consider extending yourself beyond the limit of your body's existence; historically whatever elemental part of us is at the root of that fear and longing, it has driven humankind to all kinds of creative and destructive excess and who knows, perhaps even nudged us along our evolutionary path, so it can claim some usefulness at least :¬)
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PrincessFiona
- 29/01/2008 @ 09:02:30
err thats a tough one
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jenray
Pro - http://www.jenniferhunter.co.uk
- 29/01/2008 @ 09:32:47
No, not in this life time however bad they are...HLOL...big hugs...
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- 29/01/2008 @ 09:45:36
i guess yes. [but that's a guess only]
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do you think there is a real answer, isn't it how you feel about it?
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- 29/01/2008 @ 13:46:10
I meant that Im not 100% sure about how I feel so I would venture a 'yes' answer... but i don't rule out the possiblity that I might change my mind on that..
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Angelwishes
- 29/01/2008 @ 09:50:46
Never in a million years... i would lose all those special precious times :-)
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technomist
- 29/01/2008 @ 10:03:45
I suspect many of us would kind of enjoy the possibilities that opened up when they forgot all the stupid embarrassing things they have done and any reasons that had held them back in life. On the the other hand, they might not remember what they were good at or all the lovely people they have known, which would be sad.
Being able to hear lots of great music and eat good food as if it was for the first time would be really great.-
but will it be you who will enjoy all these new experiences?
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technomist
- 29/01/2008 @ 10:17:30
It would be me, but not as I know me.
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so what does me mean? What will be common to that 'me' and you now
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technomist
- 30/01/2008 @ 00:09:12
Well, there would be my body, all the people who know and love me, such responses to the world as are innate in my character, including those I am unconscious of; all the physical traces I have left during my lifetime, writings, letters I have kept, paintings, my gardening, things I have made, a collection of music, books I have read (I have never discarded a book I have bought, and I rarely borrow them), many photographs I have taken. There will be other things I own, financial records etc. Presumably, I will have a fair idea about my former intellectual landscape. From this I might be able to choose to find out about myself, if I want to, which I suspect I would.
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Very interesting way of looking at it. I don't know what you are thinking of reincarnation, but do you think that such ‘rebirth’ as you with no memories is very different to reincarnation?
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technomist
- 30/01/2008 @ 15:29:43
I'm afraid its impossible to tell. Sometimes though, its the unknowables in life that keeps it interesting.
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technomist
- 30/01/2008 @ 17:29:11
On the subject of coming back from the dead...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DmA5J3nTg -
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I agree. But you see, when everyone enjoyed a magician show I was the guy crawling under trying to figure out how he did his tricks
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CassandraofTroy
- 29/01/2008 @ 10:10:50
It could be seen that way.
Or, as the start of a new life, as long as you were capable of making new memories.
Or even both - the death of one person, and the creation of a brand new one.
but I wonder what the personality would be like the second time around?-
but will it be you who is reborn?
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CassandraofTroy
- 29/01/2008 @ 13:14:40
Would it matter?
The old you wouldn't be around to know.
The new you would have the chance to start again.-
does death matter?
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CassandraofTroy
- 30/01/2008 @ 07:58:51
Not to the one who's dead.
On the other hand, you might as well live:
http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/4931/-
1. how can you be sure that it makes no matter to the dead? this is a belief like any other
2. If it doesn't matter to the dead, so why does it matter to the living?-
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CassandraofTroy
- 30/01/2008 @ 10:27:41
1 True. That is only my belief. But as none of us can know for certain, stating our beliefs is all any of us can do on this issue (possibly any issue, but that's another discussion), so surely my belief is as legitimate as anyone else's?
http://cassandra-of-troy.blog.co.uk/2007/08/13/more_of_the_same~2800856
2 As I don't believe it will matter to me when I'm dead, I don't see why it should bother me while I'm living. See above.-
Probably all beliefs are just equally illegitimate?
After all, don’t you think that there is a major difference between stating a fact: ‘God exists’ and stating a belief: ‘I believe that God exists’ The first one talks about God, the second about you
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CassandraofTroy
- 31/01/2008 @ 07:29:12
no, the only difference is that the second shows a greater level of self-awareness.
Saying 'God exists', because it is neither provable nor disprovable, is not stating a fact, but stating a belief as though it were a fact.
On the other hand, saying 'the world is round' is qualitatively different from 'I believe the world is round', in the way that you suggest, because the former statement is verifiable. Depending, of course, on our definitions of 'world' and 'round'.
A statement of belief, on the other hand, is never verifiable, because only you can know whether it is what you truly believe, or if you're just saying it to wind me up-
so we semi agree, but not completely. I think that when you say 'God exist' you state a fact (even if a false one) but for you its still a fact, something that does not require confirmation. When you state a 'belief' you're internally aware that the true state is unknown
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CassandraofTroy
- 31/01/2008 @ 12:00:09
that's really interesting.
kind of a second order level of belief, as in belief about your own state of belief.
I definitely feel a paper coming on.-
and like many feedback mechanism, I believe (yes, I have no proof) it converges and reaches a stationary point
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CassandraofTroy
- 01/02/2008 @ 07:23:35
Only if it's negative feedback
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kaliyugashaktimama
Pro - 29/01/2008 @ 13:24:44
Funny that you associate memory erasure with death. It is death, but is life defined by our memory? What about the idea of "living in the now"? A truism?
Memory is an aggregate of consciousness, and much of our basic social behaviour is found within that aggregate, so the question is for what purpose would one do this? Personality rehabilitation? Identity manufacturing? It would have to be a very specialized process. Or else you would render the organism helpless and unable to function in society.
What is the idea of it based in? Are you talking the eradication of personal misery which is based in memory? Or creating some weird breed of inhuman flesh and blood organisms?
Memory can be left behind through concerted effort. Many pundits say memory and dwelling in the past is a profound waste of life energy.
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ok, lets ask it differently. Is there a difference between a death penalty and complete memory eradication?
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kaliyugashaktimama
Pro
- 30/01/2008 @ 02:27:23
Have you been reading/watching Minority Report or Vanilla Sky or something?
Is there a difference between a death penalty and complete memory eradication...certainly, as memory eradication doesn't entail termination of physiological processes like heart beat, brain function etc. Though to people who had once know the "terminee", it would seem like a death penalty of sorts as the identity would be lost.-
You see, this is the main question I keep asking myself. Is 'me' more than the sum of my memories and mental faculties. So let's say if someone's mind is put in my body, will it still be me? If my mind is planted in other person's will the other person be me or him?
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kaliyugashaktimama
Pro
- 31/01/2008 @ 14:48:04
Would someone be "you" if they received a kidney or liver transplant from your body? Or a face transplant, such as they can do now? Would someone become you if they received a part of your body? No. I do not think so
Identity is consciousness. Consciousness is largely built of memory, whether factual or emotional recollections. And what's yours is all yours - share it, keep it or lump it, it's what you are! -
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sallyontour
Pro - 29/01/2008 @ 13:52:04
I like my memories thank you, I wouldn't want to lose the good ones and the bad ones serve as a reminder not to make the same mistakes again.
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and if it wasn't your choice?
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sallyontour
Pro
- 01/02/2008 @ 13:19:07
Then it depends if there is an essence, or soul, I guess which makes us what we are irrespective of memories, and if not then we're back to the blank page scenario.
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do you think there is such essence?
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sallyontour
Pro
- 02/02/2008 @ 16:46:46
Having been with people in the moments before and after they have died, yes I think there is although I cannot say why I believe that.
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MistakenIdentity
- 29/01/2008 @ 14:04:52
In some ways it would be great if you could wipe out certain memories and thoughts but surely not all. Nonetheless ALL experiences and memories shape who we are - I'd find it hard to believe that we wouldn't lose a massively important part of ourselves. How very Eternal Sunshine...
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MistakenIdentity
- 29/01/2008 @ 14:04:54
In some ways it would be great if you could wipe out certain memories and thoughts but surely not all. Nonetheless ALL experiences and memories shape who we are - I'd find it hard to believe that we wouldn't lose a massively important part of ourselves. How very Eternal Sunshine...
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but what of us is left when all our memories are gone?
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MistakenIdentity
- 30/01/2008 @ 16:55:22
I'd imagine at worst a shell and at best a blank page waiting to be written on
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tylluanpenry
- 29/01/2008 @ 16:59:02
I suspect it might depend what you wanted to forget. Me, I wouldn't consider it. I love my memories, they are old friends!
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and if you were not given the choice?
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tylluanpenry
- 02/02/2008 @ 23:11:29
Well if I wasn't given a choice that would mean
(a) I had my memory wiped
(b) I didn't have my memory wiped.
But your question was whether I would consider having my memory wiped, so I have to say no, I wouldn't. -
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- 29/01/2008 @ 19:13:05
I don't think having memory wiped out would be "death".
Would it be something I'd choose (if it were possible) the answer is clearly No. I may have some very unhappy memories but how I've dealt with those experiences have made me who I am. I've learnt (& still learning) how to deal with them so they have no hold on me. But just because I have them I wouldn't choose to wipe my memory.
If it happened then as I wouldn't be aware of what I'd lost, there'd be nothing to mourn and I'd start collecting new memories.-
but if you have to collect all your memories afresh. Would it be you who'd be collecting these memories?
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- 30/01/2008 @ 18:57:31
Yes it would in the sense that my body remains and, if you believe in Souls, my soul remains too. What you are really asking is what gives us our identity.
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indeed, this is what I am asking. What is your belief?
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- 31/01/2008 @ 19:59:20
I believe we are souls that incarnate. So you wipe out my memory I'm still the same person. To others I may develop different quirks and therefore appear slightly different. Ultimately I don't think it would be a big deal. As said, as I would have no memory I wouldn't know what I'm missing. I accept at first it may disturbing and therefore it would be important to have loving support of friends and family.
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Prettyintelligentprincess
Pro - 29/01/2008 @ 23:39:49
Oh this is just too ...scientific and too thought of..it's not a spontaneous set of responses!
Ran...you don't really care do you! Statement...not a question. This blog...not post...but the blog.. should be entitled Devil's Advocate! You would be very good as prosection lawyer...
you can see people getting more and more tongue tied...and others more and more cautious!
You seem aggressive...and yes shoot me down...I don't care...really bloody worrying about tomorrow...so if we erased memories...it would make no difference to me as what has happened has happened whether I remember it or not...
and people are still treating me...well most of them ..like a f**king leper...talk about black sheep...they should have their memories erased.
Sorry...just a rant...hope you are well...take care x-
of course I care. I read every single answer. But I want true answers, not superficial ones. I want to know what people think about life and death. But the reality is that its too easy to avoid these questions.
What I am trying to think about are we our memories, or is there more to us.
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loiswakeman
- http://lois.co.uk
- 01/02/2008 @ 11:35:28
No, as memory is only part of what I am. I would be severely reduced of course.
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what do you consider to be your other parts?
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loiswakeman
- http://lois.co.uk
- 04/02/2008 @ 09:56:35
my physical and mental talents, aptitudes and deficiencies, the environmental influences that made me what I am, my friends and family, ... and probably other things I haven't thought about
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No. People with long or short term memory problems, even people with severe anterograde amnesia (as in the film Memento) still have a strong sense of self even if the mental image they have of themselves is often somewhat confused. While it is never easy, with a few adjustments they are usually able to continue reasonably healthy, happy lives.